Minds Behind the Music

Search terms: Babyface, “music producers”, Kenny Gamble, “stax records”, Motown producers, record producer, “quincy jones”, “jimmy jam”, “terry lewis”, clive davis, laface

Nearly everyone alive listens to music. They transport us back in time, boost our mood, and feed our souls, but oftentimes we do not think of the minds behind our favorite songs. This is where producers come in. According to Michael Mauldin, the first Black president of the Black music division at Columbia Records, “Producer basically takes an art form like music or, you know, and take rap or whatever, and take the artist and match it. A producer delivers it to the public. A producer makes it possible to be published, and makes it so it's supposedly--I want to say commercially viable. But some producers don't produce commercially, so whatever, whatever direction you try to take it to make it successful, the producers are actually the ones who deliver. He produces it, he puts it all together. So you take the song, you take the artist, you take the material, you take it to the A and R [artists and repertoire] executive who says, "Well I want this kind of record," or whatever, and you mesh it all together to ultimately give people what it is they want. And that's kind of--or what it is that you want. And that's kind of the direction. And in most of those cases I think I played the title, the role of executive producer, because I was helping to facilitate. I wouldn't be in the studio, but really I was facilitating the opportunities and the relationships to deliver it.”

Corporate executive Cecil Hale describes the role of a producer further from his own experiences, “There were two roles that I played. One of them was as producer, the other one as executive producer. As executive producer, I become the representative of the company in the production process. I oversee budgets. I oversee song selection. Most folks don't know that there's a whole process in terms of what songs are gonna be recorded. I find songs. I oversee expenses to make sure that it's all within budget. I oversee sequencing, which order the songs are going to be placed on the album. I devise plans in terms of, "Which one of these will we release first?" Because you release them in a sequence. You want to get the most sales out of the long form as compared to singles. Because the margins are much wider for that. I have to interact with the different departments that are putting the record together. I got to make sure publicity is doing its job. That promotion is doing its job. To make sure that my office is doing its job as far as all the payments are concerned for union payments. I have to pick the producer. I have to agree upon the producer contract and the producer salary. Make sure that the union contracts are being observed to the letter. All of that. And there's a lot that goes into making a record. As a producer, I became the line person. I became the guy who was in the studio, who had his hands on the tape and his hands on the console, doing what I had to do with the performer to get the best performance out of them. I had to organize the musicians to make sure that everything was great. From not only the concept, but all the way down to the mix, all the way to the sound. That would be commercial. Yes.”

Singer, producer, and county commissioner The Honorable Jerry Butler, describes working with iconic duo Gamble and Huff, originators of the “Philly sound”, “With Gamble and Huff, we could almost hear the finished product while we were writing the song. And I think that was because Huff was playing the master instrument, the piano and he could do the, the rhythm, the horns, you know the voicings. He had it all in his fingertips and he was such a marvelous musician that as we were writing the songs and putting--he was orchestrating how it--and it, it just flowed. It was, it was indeed creative genius and I say that about the two of them. And then the interesting thing, we were all fire [Zodiac] signs. Huff is an Aries, Gamble is a Leo and I'm a Sagittarian and it just seemed that all of the fire just boom, would explore whenever we sat down to do something. And even the song, the last song that I recorded with them which was 'Cooling Out,' [1978] which was not a major hit in a lot of areas but wherever it was played, it was a hit. And so I think maybe we could have done it again but it was just too much and too many people and too much time to try and leap frog that whole process.”

James Poyser, producer, songwriter, and member of The Roots, shares his experience with Gamble and Huff, “Yeah, so that's when we started to learn what was going on, 'cause Mr. G, Mr. Gamble and Mr. Huff [HistoryMaker Leon Huff], just by watching them, they were still working on certain things. So watching them work on their things but even more so, just watching how they carried themselves, watching how they spoke, sitting down in meetings with them and just listening in on what they talked about it was like a master class of how to carry yourself and how to prepare, and how to work in the music business 'cause these guys are two of the greatest that have ever done it. And I could say I learned so, so much, you know, so, so much from them.”

Leon Huff, one half of the duo, details how they came up with their signature sound, “But basically what I did was--when we got that piano--and I think that Gamble said it made a difference. When we got the piano it was in Gamble's office, the action wasn't really fast enough for me. So what I did was, I went to the drugstore and I got about three boxes of thumb tacks, and I took the top off the piano and I put the thumbtacks behind every hammer on the keyboard. When it hit that string it would bounce off, and that made the action fast. And I loved it. And it created a whole different sound. And I used that pedal on the piano as a backbeat, to keep the time down. And that's the way I rocked on that piano. And those thumbtacks made a whole different sound to that piano.”

Logo for production company LaFace Records founded by L.A. Reid and Kenneth “Babyface” Edmonds

Huff discusses fellow producers he admires within the R&B industry, “When we were coming through--when we were coming up through the music world, I admired L.A. Reid and Babyface [Kenneth "Babyface" Edmonds], with that Babyface label [LaFace Records, Atlanta, Georgia] they had. They did great with that. And of course, Babyface, very talented. And L.A. Reid, of course, now he's doing great things. But I admire them, as far as the label concept and artists. And Al Bell, Stax [Stax Records, Memphis, Tennessee], that whole Stax, you know, Otis Redding. We're close with Al Bell, so I admire that whole pocket of music, too. That's basically it.”

There is a distinct difference between the “game” of being a producer in the past versus the modern era. Huff shares his thoughts, “Jay Z, which is, you know, the main players today with the label and the branding. It's a whole different--it wasn't branding. It wasn't about branding when me and Gamble came through. It's about branding now. You know, so it's--I found out how important branding was, you know, when that rap era came through, you know, with the clothes lines. And the whole thing just opened up, you know. Anybody successful. I don't really get into all of that. You know, I'm into like trying to create something new (laughter) music wise, you know. I read about them, you know, but I don't follow it.”

Production duo Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis

Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis are another iconic production duo in the R&B space known for working with stars such as Usher, Janet Jackson, Mary J. Blige, and New Edition. James “Jimmy Jam” Harris talks about the agreement he made with Lewis that set the tone for their career, “and then that takes it back to something we did back in 1982. Which is we shook hands once we figured out that we were going to write and produce songs together, that that's what we wanted to do. We shook hands and we just said, "50/50 [percent]. No matter how much anybody does on a song, 50/50." Because we figure over the long, long run it's just going to even itself out. And, it pretty much has. I've gone through periods where I have a dry spell, I can't figure out nothing. And, he's on top of it, he's got it. The vice versa has happened. It's very rare where we both, if we both don't have a good idea than we're working with the wrong person. Because the artist always inspires the, the idea. So, when somebody says, when somebody calls and goes, "Hey, do you want to work with Mary J. Blige?" "Yes. I love Mary J., oh, my god. I get to write a song for her? Are you kidding me? Oh, I got this, I got this. I know what this is," right. When you get that feeling than that's to me when, when the great stuff happens, you know. If somebody says, "Hey, New Edition. Johnny Gill's joined the group now. They're grown up now. What kind of record do we need to make?" Another great Terry Lewis example. Terry Lewis wrote 'Boys to Men,' the song 'Boys to Men,' which, it's explained what New--where New Edition was in their careers. And, became the name of Boyz II Men the group. It was taken from the song that Terry, you know, came up with. “

“That’s the Way Love Goes” by Janet Jackson, produced by Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis

Harris describes the creative process of producing a song for Janet Jackson and his inspiration behind it, “Mary J. Blige made a record called 'My Life,' which was probably one of my favorite top ten records of all time. And, the way the record was constructed; now, Puffy [Sean Combs] got, or P. Diddy as he's now known, got basically the credit for producing the record. But, he actually had a guy named Chucky Thompson did really, I think, did the record and conceptualized everything. And, he basically took all these old samples, made loops out of them, Mary sang over the top of it, and it was really what was called hip hop soul. It was really like when they called her the queen of hip hop soul. She is, right. When we did "That's the Way Love Goes" and I took a James Brown sample and made a loop out of it. But, then put a melody on it and some chords over the top of it. I was just influenced so much by Mary, what Mary J. did that that made me want to do that for Janet [Janet Jackson]. Jan- Mary came out with a record right after 'That's the Way Love Goes' using the exact same sample. And, I remember talking to Mary one day, and I said, "Mary," I said, I said, "that record you got out with the, with the sample." And she said, "Yeah," (gesture). She said, "Yeah." And, I said, "Did you have--was that out before?" And, she said, "No." She said, "I was copying y'all's record." (Laughter) I said, "Really?" So, basically, that was such a compliment to me that she liked something we did which is in her genre enough to really go and copy it, and really copy it.”

Producer and composer Harold Wheeler who was the youngest Broadway conductor, discusses his specialty as a producer in the 1970s and 80s, “Classy, orchestrated things, I mean, and this is, and I do it, they hire me because I know the record business and I know this kind of music, and when Engelbert Humperdinck requested me, when I walked in he said, "May I help you?" He didn't even know I was black. He just says, "I hear what this man has done and I want--," you know. And it didn't matter to him. He said, "Okay, right, yeah." I didn't, I've done a lot of live things with Diana Ross, and a lot of them are symphony things, because she travels around the country doing symphonic concerts in Berlin Symphony Orchestra, and just everywhere and I've done a lot of stuff for her, and they used to call me the West Coast Motown, 'cause I do all the Motown stuff and whenever they're performing, you know, they call me, but in the record industry, it's, you know, it's been a lot of, Gloria Gaynor, black artist, there have been a couple of my own groupie--Consumer Rapport, the Meco, the 'Star Wars' things and we did a musical rendition of the music from 'Close Encounters' and those things, producing all of those. And, I mean, just a countless number of other artists, some of them I can't even remember, the one-shot single things that we've done, but it's been good, a lot of fun, you know, a lot of fun.”

On the jazz front, bassist and arranger Johnny Pate, discusses his time as a producer, “Verve Records hired me to come to work for them as in-house producer, and some of the people that I produced while I was there was Stan Getz, Jimmy Smith the organist, Shirley Horn, Kenny Burrell, Monty Alexander, Phil Woods; these are a few of the people that I worked with with Verve, and this was strictly in a jazz field, you know. And I stayed with Verve a couple of years until I really started doing--getting more involved in movies, and that's the time that I left New York and I moved to L.A. [Los Angeles, California], and from that time on, I just worked independent--independently, as an independent producer.”

The first gold record is a milestone for producers, R&B producer and member of soul music group, Kindred Family Soul, Fatin Dantzler, recounts the story of his first gold record, “When I went to California to do the songs with Bell Biv DeVoe, I remember specifically that I bought a souvenir gold record and brought it back to my mother [Delica Dantzler Sulaiman] and told her that, "I'm gonna replace this with a gold record." Because, it was something about, you know, working with Bell Biv DeVoe at that time, because they were really, really hot, you know. They were like a really huge group going into that second album. Unfortunately, you know, they had gone like three or four times platinum on their first record, 'Poison.' And, then the 'Hootie Mack' record only went gold. So, you know, went from 3 or 4 million copies to five hundred thousand. Now, for them, that wasn't a win. But, for me, as that being my first product out, and it being on Bell Biv DeVoe, and making a gold record, it was the biggest thing in the world to me, you understand what I'm saying. And, I--of course, we felt for them that they didn't reach the heights that they had reached before and that they had to deal with the issues of like, you know, these songs for whatever reason didn't carry them as far, you know, as they would've liked them to. But, we were, we initially were slated to do the only two ballads on the record. And, at the last minute, because they wanted to make sure that they could sell the copies and we were unknown--unproven producers, even though they, they liked the material, they went with a Babyface song, because Babyface [Kenneth "Babyface" Edmonds] was hot as well, to do the single. And, Babyface's single ["Something in Your Eyes"] is probably the reason why the record actually did as decent as it did. Because they had a Babyface song, and that got radio play and da, da, da, da, da, and blase, blah, so. Babyface where ever you are brother, thank you very much.”

Jimmy Jam tells the story of his and Terry Lewis’ first gold record in 1984, “Well, actually our first gold record was probably Gladys Knight and the Pips. We did an album called 'Imagination.' We just did one song on it. And, I remember we got, at least the Leon Sylvers [Leon Sylvers III] education of what a producer is. Because, we basically did the track. He went in and did the vocals. When the album came out, we expected to have a producer credit. When we looked at the album, we got a rhythm arranger credit. And, we said, "Well, Leon, we produced the track." And, Leon had a way of talking where it was always a whisper, and he always was scratching his beard. And, Leon said, "You're not a producer until you can produce the vocal too." And, we were like, "Okay. So, we just do the track, we're not a producer. That's means we need to learn how to do vocals," you know. Which is different than it is today by the way. Somebody'll send a track in and go, "Oh, I'm a producer." And, then they're get a vocal producer to go produce it. But, different day back then. So, we really set out to try to become really good vocal producers. And, S.O.S. Band, by the time we got around to doing the S.O.S. Band record, 'Just Be Good to Me,' and 'Tell Me If You Still Care,' which were the two big songs off that album, we produced those vocals and track, and did, you know, we did everything. So, we at that point were producers. And, even though we got a gold record for Gladys Knight, I don't really feel like that was our gold record. But, S.O.S. Band, I felt that was our gold record. That was really our first gold record and the first of, of a lot of them, you know.”

Producers are essential to the music industry and effective music production is a skill. Many producers are hidden but watching interviews in the digital archive gives us a window into the minds behind the music.

Student Ambassador Update

This week I posted another TV trivia to our Instagram story and began researching for a new one. I also researched the archive to prepare for meetings with professors. I am making tailored playlists based on what classes the professors teach so I have been saving videos for that. I have been researching consumer behavior and marketing to speak to one professor that is in the business department. I also followed up with the contestants from the digital archive contest.

Michael Mauldin (The HistoryMakers A2007.257), interviewed by Denise Gines, February 29, 2008, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 2, tape 6, story 6, Michael Mauldin describes the role of a music producer

Cecil Hale (The HistoryMakers A2002.008), interviewed by Julieanna L. Richardson, February 22, 2002, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 1, tape 4, story 4, Cecil Hale talks about his work in A & R and producing for Capitol Records

The Honorable Jerry Butler (The HistoryMakers A2002.070), interviewed by Julieanna L. Richardson, June 11, 2002, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 1, tape 6, story 1, Jerry Butler talks about songwriting with Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff

James Poyser (The HistoryMakers A2014.143), interviewed by Julieanna L. Richardson, May 6, 2014, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 1, tape 3, story 8, James Poyser remembers learning music production from Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, pt. 1

Leon Huff (The HistoryMakers A2013.085), interviewed by Larry Crowe, March 26, 2013, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 1, tape 4, story 4, Leon Huff talks about developing Gamble and Huff's unique sound

Leon Huff (The HistoryMakers A2013.085), interviewed by Larry Crowe, March 26, 2013, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 1, tape 6, story 14, Leon Huff talks about his admiration of other black music producers

James "Jimmy Jam" Harris, III (The HistoryMakers A2013.353), interviewed by Larry Crowe, December 19, 2013, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 1, tape 6, story 3, James "Jimmy Jam" Harris, III describes his partnership with Terry Lewis, pt. 2

James "Jimmy Jam" Harris, III (The HistoryMakers A2013.353), interviewed by Larry Crowe, December 19, 2013, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 1, tape 6, story 5, James "Jimmy Jam" Harris, III talks about using technology as a producer, pt. 2

Harold Wheeler (The HistoryMakers A2005.224), interviewed by Larry Crowe, October 3, 2005, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 1, tape 5, story 2, Harold Wheeler describes his work as a record producer

Johnny Pate (The HistoryMakers A2004.188), interviewed by Larry Crowe, September 30, 2004, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 1, tape 5, story 1, Johnny Pate talks about working as a producer for Verve Records

Fatin Dantzler (The HistoryMakers A2012.102), interviewed by Larry Crowe, May 22, 2012, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 1, tape 3, story 9, Fatin Dantzler remembers his first gold record

James "Jimmy Jam" Harris, III (The HistoryMakers A2013.353), interviewed by Larry Crowe, December 19, 2013, The HistoryMakers Digital Archive. Session 1, tape 5, story 6, James "Jimmy Jam" Harris, III remembers his first gold records

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